Sellsius real estate marketing blog

Dave mentioned that the public likes Z vs public Auditor's sites because of the aerial maps. FYI, our Auditors use the aerial maps plus a 3D version and it's overlaid with the plat lines. That's why the public values those sites rather than the inaccuracies of Z.

As I noted, there is no Zestimate for our area. But the price range Z gives on my home is a swing of over $100,000. On a $200K home, that's quite a swing!

David,

The questions still on your plate are as follows:

1. Does Zillow publish grossly inaccurate zestimates? I assume your failure to deny it means Yes they do. Don;t worry, we all know it's true.

So now we get to the crux of the biscuit--

2. Is a grossly inaccurate zestimate false and misleading information? This one you have successfully dodged for quite a while. A simple yes or no answer will do it. C'mon David, give it a shot.

3. Are you saying it is impossible for a zestimate to be false and misleading because it is a opinion? This seems to be your defense but I don't want to put words in your mouth.

4. Are you saying a “range” of value opinion is impossible to be false and misleading? (Remember, the zestimate “range” does not appear on every page a zestimate appears.)

3. Do homeowners have ANY of these exclusive rights:
* where their property is listed for sale (or not listed)
* how it is marketed and advertised
* not have false or misleading information attached to the home, and
* who will list, advertise and market their home as their agent.

As always, we appreciate your comments.

BTW, are you getting overtime for this thread :)

Cmon Dave. I can write an algorithm in a couple hours that could produce far more accurate estimates and I'm an idiot. In fact, I have one you guys can use. If you are serious about wanting to improve your Zestimates, give me a call.

Hello again Irene -

Public records on Zillow should not differ from those at your county. Please send me your address so I can investigate further (privately of course.) My email is [davidg AT zillow DOT com]

Tony -

Thanks! We do in fact have more people far smarter than I working on upcoming improvements to algorithms. That said; it's important to have realistic expectations for automated valuations - and so we also put a lot of effort in to how best to communicate them to users.

Hello again Zillow,

I completely understand the need for TOU. However, with A/R there is a definite benefit to my contribution and I CHOOSE to use their services. Unlike Zillow, where the only reason I would be inclinded to enter information is to correct data which is incorrect and may be detrimental to my best interests as a homeowner.

As for the public records, they are correct per the county and per the MRIS tax records (which uses the county's database). My husband and I built our home with our own two hands. We pulled our own permits...walked them to the county and everything. So I know the county records to be true. I don't know where your information came from. Are you using a third party to collect public information? If you're not getting direct public data from the individual jurisdiction, then I don't see how this Zillow system can work consistently.

As for aerial views, are you talking about the aerial views from MSN Live Search, or Google, or Yahoo maps? If you are saying Zillow is a good place to come and get sort-a-kind-a-but-not-really-accurate-information and with it an aerial view of the property, I'd say you're right - but not quite. The aerial view of "my house" showed my neighbor's house two homes away...we are on 10+ acre lots.

If Zillow were a tool for getting "rough" estimates, then my neighbor, Farmer Silver down the street who's lived here for nearly 100 years, would be better equipped to give an "estimate". I would think most homeowners would see it that way. But I've been wrong before....

If only Zillow would hire people as relentless and vigilant as David G. to work in their Zestimates department. Maybe then the zestimates wouldn't be so "rough" and you wouldn't be able to drive a truck through their range of prices.

Nice try, but your post reads "public record" not "public fact." The public records cited in this post are not in fact the public records. Zillow's information reflects the public record yet this post still contradicts that.

Please correct your post.

Hi Irene,

Thanks for the feedback about the T.O.U. The gist of that excerpt is that you're responsible for the info you provide and that Zillow has the right to publish it. If you check your terms of use for your A/R blog you'll find it's quite similar as is the T.O.U. for most web 2.0 sites that accept user contributions. Use of these sites implies acceptance of their terms but I personally like the fact that Zillow reminds users of that fact when posting listings and claiming homes.

I'd need your address to investigate further but it sounds as though the public records about your home are incorrect. If that's the case, you should note that that is not Zillow's error and you can in fact have it corrected by your county. We've made it easy for owners to publish correct facts should they not want to bother with correcting the public record. Zillow is the only website of its kind where owners have this capability.

You're correct that public records are, well, public ... but as you know, they're seldom convenient to access and don't include the aerial imagery that our users love. I totally understand that Realtors don't need Zillow to form an opinion of value - but I totally disagree that a homeowner should purchase an appraisal any time they want a rough estimate of home values. Zestimate values are in no way competitive to CMA's and appraisals - they perform an entirely different function - they're a great starting point for someone who is researching home values.

Very good points Irene, especially on Terms of Use. Homeowners may not want to play the Zillow game.

The question, as we see it, is:

Does "false and misleading" information exist on zillow.com? Well, does it?

1. Are you saying it is impossible for zestimates to be false and misleading because they are opinions? Please answer this one David.

2. Are you saying a "range" of value opinions, coupled with a zestimate, is impossible to be false and misleading? (Remember too the zestimate "range" does not appear on every page a zestimate appears) http://tinyurl.com/25vuvm

Why won't you answer my questions on homeowner rights?

PS the post has been updated-- we posted one set of public facts and made the statement that zillow says its different public facts are the actual public facts. Why would you object to this, since it mirrors how zillow treats homeowner complaints on accuracy. Now you can appreciate their frustration. The only difference is homeowners have more at stake by having false and misleading information about their homes on zillow.com.

Why on earth would anyone want or need Zillow's opinion about anything?! If your information is a culmination of public data and MLS data, why on earth would I, as a consumer, be inclined to use your site? I could easily obtain this information on my own through county public records and sales data.

This isn't rocket science. Your opinions of values are SO grossly inaccurate in almost ALL of the cases I've seen that it is incomprehensible to me that you are still up and running. Perhaps you've convinced a small portion of the American public that Zillow is "looking out for them" but as a professional and as a consumer, I don't see it that way.

If I was truly looking out for myself I'd hire an appraiser, check the public records and request a CMA from several area real estate professionals. I have absolutely no vested interest as a professional to do anything but give accurate information to my clients and that INCLUDES a subjective analysis after viewing comparable properties.

Zillow was grossly inaccurate with my data on my personal residence, for example, and when I took the time to make the corrections, I had to agree to Zillow's Terms of Use. This paragraph got me a bit miffed:

3. Materials You Provide; Account Use; Privacy. For materials you post or otherwise provide to Zillow.com or in connection with the Services (your "Submission"), you grant Zillow.com an irrevocable, perpetual, worldwide license to (1) use, copy, distribute, transmit, publicly display, publicly perform, reproduce, edit, modify, and translate your Submission, in connection with the Services or in any other media, and (2) sublicense these rights, to the maximum extent permitted by applicable law. Zillow.com will not pay you for your Submission. Zillow.com may remove your Submission at any time. For each Submission, you represent that you have all rights necessary to grant Zillow.com the rights in this paragraph and that the Submission complies with Section 2(a) above. You may not share your Zillow.com user account with others. You are responsible for all actions taken via your account. Zillow.com will treat your use of the Services in accordance with its Privacy Policy.

The bottom line is to make the corrections I would have to aggree to YOUR terms of use although the corrections are YOUR error. My home is a waterfront lot - Zillow does not recognize this. My community is in an active HOA. Zillow doesn't recognize this. It is an equestrian community with fencing, pastures, barns, and trails. Zillow does not mention this. It is a waterview lot. Zillow doesn't mention this. I understand it's a ZESTIMATE, whatever the heck that means and certainly anyone with any sense knows it doesn't amount to squat! If you are not physically assessing the property, don't assume to GUESS at my home's value. You don't have a clue!

I encourage you to spend some time on Zillow to get a better understanding of how Zillow treats both home facts and Zestimate values.

With regards to home facts; Zillow publishes two sets of data - the public record and the owner's facts (should the owner choose to provide them.) The source of both sets of data are clearly indicated on the site. Public records can sometimes be incorrect or incomplete - and that's why the owner's data set is important. But, it is still interesting _that_ the public record is incorrect and so, we don't pretend that the owners' facts are the public records. I hope that makes sense.

With regards to Zestimate values, please note that they are estimates - or _opinions_ of value. Unlike the inaccurate statements made in this blog post, Zestimates are not presented as fact. In fact, every Zestimate has a maximum and minimum value attached to it clearly indicating that actual values will often vary from the Zestimate. Zestimates are not appraisals, nor are they CMA's.

This distinction between fact and opinion is very important to understanding Zestimate values ... and life in general. You should look into it. ;-)

Will you please correct the incorrect 'facts' posted here?

Why won't you share the source of the incorrect public records posted above? Were those fabricated?

We completely agree Elaine.

I like your analogy to sploggers.

I am still waiting for David to admit that grossly inaccurate zestimates are false and misleading information.

We're lucky here. No Zestimates are available and when one views "comparable" properties, they're way off. When Z first come into being, there was some discussion, but now I seldom hear clients mentioning the site. I don't think they have any credibility in this market.

Our Auditor's web sites are so good that most of the clients use those sites for their info.

I totally support that the homeowner should be able to opt-out and not have their inaccurate data reflected. Just as we can take action against sploggers to remove bad posts, homeowners should be able to take against Z WITHOUT the only option being to CORRECT Z's bad data.

Thank you for your insightful comments Irene. I updated the post.

Re: your last paragraph
Your clients are not using zillow as a tool YET. BUT, the more real estate professionals display the zillow "valuation" widget on their websites http://tinyurl.com/2owv6q and the more press that publicize its reports (and inaccurately report what zillow does) http://tinyurl.com/ywv4k4, the more likely consumers will attach trust in zestimates. The only fair solution is to give the homeowners the power and rights they are entitled to-- the main one being the right to have false & misleading information removed from zillow.com.

And yes, certainly, homeowners are under NO duty to correct zillow's data or valuation (for Zillow's monetary benefit). Instead, a homeowner should have the right to say "Please remove the inaccurate information or zestimate associated with my home." End of story. The day will come when this will be.

Zillow's refusal to give homeowners the opt-out indicates (to us) that Zillow does not trust owners to remove only inaccurate zestimates. (David: do you believe, if allowed to opt out of zestimates, owners would remove more than inaccurate zestimates? Is this one of the reasons for denying the opt-out?)

David, do you have the other answers yet?

Had to add one more thing here...Mr. Stevens is the FORMER NAR president. Our new president is Pat V. Combs of Grand Rapids, Michigan.

Selsius,

I was with you until I noticed some inaccuracies with regard to your post. 766 days on the market? In what MLS? Not the MRIS...

The first listing was put on the market for $1,450,000 on 9/30/2005 and it expired on 9/28/2006 - MLS #FX5405253. The second listing, FX6395803, was listed on May 3, 2007 and withdrawn on October 12, 2007 with no price adjustments. The new listing, FX6564238, was entered into the system on October 12, 2007 and remains active today at $1,285,000.

Unless Mr. Stevens had the home marketed as a FSBO, it is inaccurate to state that the property has been "on the market" for 766 days. 557 days is more like it. He took it off the market from September 28th until May 3rd to give it the 180+ days he needed to refresh the listing and have it start again at 0 days on the market.

Zillow's figures are accurate based on the information in the MLS with the exception of the 1/2 bath (which is not showing in your blog reflecting Zillow's information). The MRIS has conflicting data in the lot square footage. The tax records on MRIS show the lot size to be 2.063 or 89,864 sq ft yet the listing is abbreviated to 2.06 and shows the lot size at 89,734 (or 89,733.60 exactly). Apparently, Zillow doesn't round up.

Also, Zillow is accurately reflecting the county's public records with 4 bedrooms, 2.5 baths. I was confused by your chart and your text. They didn't sync. Did Zillow have it listed with 2 baths or 2.5? Either way, you are right, the improvements made to the lower level are not shown, and that included the extra full bath.

Now, with regard to the inaccuracies in the listing agent's accounting for above grade finished square footage (it is showing in the MLS as 5235 sq ft) that's a problem for the agent, the broker and Mr. Stevens, I suppose. If no permits were pulled for the basement and an accurate assessment has not been made, then there will be consequences, to be sure. As stated previously, the seller must disclose the fact that improvements were made without the benefit of county permits.

This is ALL under the assumption that the tax records are, in fact, correct. Counties are known to enter incorrect data in some circumstances and I would rather give the NAR president the benefit of the doubt that everything is on the up and up. Of course, his buyer, if he should ever get one, would be smart to check this information out very thoroughly.

Great discussion. I'm not inclined to think as a home seller I am obligated to supply Zillow with information to correct inaccuracies in their figures. Zillow is not a tool any of my clients are using - especially in today's market when values are changing weekly! But to be fair, there seem to be inaccuracies on both sides here.

The market has changed dramatically in most region .
I think to draw the parrallel to modern politics is appropriate here.

David--

In Zillowish fashion, I updated the post & stated that Zillow claims its public information is correct and not the published public information in the post. This is exactly how Zillow treats a homeowner-- allowing them to complain about inaccurate zestimates -- but not removing them on the homeowner's word--- instead the homeowner zestimate sits there with the Z zestimate-- just as I have done. Makes for reader/buyer confusion-- no?

Zillow says "dear homeowner, it is up to you to change the 'facts' (beds, baths)but we will not remove inaccurate zestimate, even if they are grossly inaccurate."

But consider a more important point:

WHY must a homeowner be required to correct ANY data on Zillow's website? As a homeowner, I should have the right to say to Zillow- the published information and/or valuation on my home is grossly inaccurate--- Please remove it (an opt out). That should be enough. I should not be made to GIVE Zillow the correct data-- it is not my duty to do so-- is it? Besides, correcting data will STILL not cause Zillow to remove an inaccurate zestimate.

Surely, you must appreciate the irony.

I will make a deal with you, David--- answer the questions I asked you (which you refused to answer), namely-

1. Is a grossly inaccurate zestimate false and misleading information?
2. Does zillow publish grossly inaccurate zestimates?
3. Do you admit to any of the 4 exclusive homeowner rights in this post: http://tinyurl.com/2dvcxf

Answer these and I will answer your question where I got the public data. Fair?

I don't care what square footage the house and the lot are, 766 days on the market is CRAZY. Perhaps someone needs to do some training on price reductions???

Sellsius -

Zillow does in fact allow homeowners to publish their own (correct) home facts - and Zillow does in fact allow homeowners to publish their own estimates.

Now, back to the matter at hand.
a) Where did your quoted "public records" come from and ...
b) Will you please correct the inaccuracies in this post?

If zillow was off $131 on their estimates we would all be jumping up and down praising their information, not telling them to correct their inaccurate information. I can't even get them to change my home from a single family to a townhouse.

David

It is interesting you would insist on correction of information but do not afford homeowners the same courtesy when it comes to the value of their homes. Perhaps knowing they have inaccurate data on the home, Zillow will correct it. (They won't will they?)

Why are you arguing over who has the correct "inaccurate" public facts?

Tony's correct i.e. the public records on Zillow reflect the data that Fairfax county has for the home. So, again: where do the flawed public records come from? And, please correct your post.

Also, just FYI; as a broker, Redfin has access to the MLS. Agents don't post listings on Redfin and they don't have to scrape anything to get listings.

Correction to my previous comment, Mr. Stevens house is located in Fairfax County not Loudoun County. I looked it up in the right database but wrote the wrong one. Sorry about that.

I just looked up the listing in the Loudoun County public records database and the correct lot size is 89,864 (zillow is accurate). There are only 2.5 baths in the public record and 4 bedrooms. The house also has an unfinished basement according to the tax records but the listing has it as fully finished. Mr. Stevens probably finished the basement during the time he owned the property but failed to informed the county he was doing so. Whether or not he did that to avoid paying additional taxes or because he didn't know he had to is anybody's guess. The law recently changed and now Mr. Stevens will have to disclose that he didn't pull the proper permits to build his basement. If he doesn't it will be fraud according to the new laws in VA. Someone should call him up and see if he even knows the new laws. He obviously hasn't sold real estate in quite some time (766 days).

I think to draw the parrallel to modern politics is appropriate here.

Often our political leaders get into trouble by acting as if they live in a world unviewed by the populace.

But as evening television reminds us of these guys undoings, mixed in with the daily dose of all Britney all the time.

Well in a sense we are that "bloggerratti".

I think that this NAR President would not see how this looks is assinine. In fact it is irresponsible. In this day and age it is as out of touch as I think possible for a "leader" of the face of the Realtor. "Make sure you get a Realtor not just an agent, and maybe you too can be listed for several years!"

Hi, it's David from Zillow,

Where did you get this version of the public facts from?

I guess even the highly educated and very well connected people in Real Estate don't want to come to grips that the market has changed dramatically in most regions over the last few years. 766 days! This is a great example of not wanting to face reality. The house is vacant no less!!